#43321From:Alexey Vissarionov
To:Michiel van der Vlist
Date:15-02-2021 04:40:02
Subj:Ping
Good ${greeting_time}, Michiel!

15 Feb 2021 00:16:38, you wrote to me:

MvdV>>> 1) I am not a lemming, I do not just follow for the sake of
MvdV>>> following. Not even the "two steps before becoming the
MvdV>>> reference implementation".
AV>> The author of PoC had some really good reasons to do that, n'est pas?
MvdV> I don't know who the author of PoC is and so I do not know his|her
MvdV> reasons. Nor do I know if these reasons are good or bad...

You can find that in FTSC archives... (TLDR: me).

MvdV>>> 2) It violates my principle of "pass 'as is', unless there is a
MvdV>>> clear technical reason for not doing so".
AV>> Reply != pass
MvdV> Semantics.

Reply is a new message with its own technical fields.

MvdV>>> So far I have seen no clear technical reason for invalidating
MvdV>>> tear lines and origin lines in a PING respons. Origin lines do
MvdV>>> not belong in netmail anyway, so that would be a case of GiGo.
MvdV>>> So.. can you give me a clear technical reason? "PoC does it",
MvdV>>> is not a valid clear technical reason.
AV>> The robot does pass all original messages "as is". But when it
AV>> generates _new_ _message_ with the reply, it _must_ (as in FTA-1006)
AV>> make sure nothing would affect further processing of that message.
MvdV> What "further processing" is there to be done on a reply from a
MvdV> PING robot? It is meant to be read by a human and that is it.

Mail routing.

AV>> Quoting the original message back (as in FSC-0032) could be a good
AV>> solution. However, the FSC-0032 explicitly states: "Kludge lines,
AV>> including tear lines and origins lines are not normally quoted, but
AV>> when they are - they must never be quoted exactly - this definitely
AV>> causes problems with other software!"
MvdV> 1) What "other software"? PING replys are meant to be read by a
MvdV> human.

Or some other robot. You never know...

MvdV> 2) FSCs are proposals that for one reason or another never made it
MvdV> into a standard. So they are not binding or authoritive in any way.
MvdV> 3) FSC-0032 is about echomail, PING is about netmail.
MvdV> I still see no clear technical reason why PING robots should
MvdV> invalidate tear lines or origin lines.

Because they don't belong to a message sent back by a robot. It can either invalidate or delete them, but leaving them as they come in the request is a very unwise idea.


--
Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

... GPG: 8832FE9FA791F7968AC96E4E909DAC45EF3B1FA8 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
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#43322From:Michiel van der Vlist
To:Alexey Vissarionov
Date:15-02-2021 12:21:00
Subj:Ping
Hello Alexey,

On Monday February 15 2021 04:40, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> I don't know who the author of PoC is and so I do not know
MvdV>> his|her reasons. Nor do I know if these reasons are good or
MvdV>> bad...

AV> You can find that in FTSC archives... (TLDR: me).

A search on fstc.org gives no hits and I an not in the mood to wade through it all to find it. I don't like being send on a wild goose chase. If you think it isi mportant that I know the reasons of the author of PoC, you could just tell me. I am not ijn the habit os accepting something as fact just because someone says so.

MvdV>> What "further processing" is there to be done on a reply from a
MvdV>> PING robot? It is meant to be read by a human and that is it.

AV> Mail routing.

???

AV>>> Quoting the original message back (as in FSC-0032) could be a
AV>>> good solution. However, the FSC-0032 explicitly states: "Kludge
AV>>> lines, including tear lines and origins lines are not normally
AV>>> quoted, but when they are - they must never be quoted exactly -
AV>>> this definitely causes problems with other software!"

MvdV>> 1) What "other software"? PING replys are meant to be read by a
MvdV>> human.

AV> Or some other robot. You never know...

What I know is that such a hyphotecial robot runs on the system of the initiator of the PING. That is where the respons goes. If the initiator of the response insists on adding tearline en origin to the ping request while his hypothetical robot ca not deal with such a situation, he only has himself to blame.

Origin lines are for echomail. They do not belong in netmail. Of couse it does not harm, but an origin line in netmail should simply be treated as text and never be "processed".

AV> Because they don't belong to a message sent back by a robot. It can
AV> either invalidate or delete them, but leaving them as they come in the
AV> request is a very unwise idea.

Your opinion is noted. My opinion is that in netmail it is just text and should be dealt with as such.



Cheers, Michiel

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#43323From:Nick Andre
To:Michiel Van Der Vlist
Date:14-02-2021 23:59:16
Subj:Re: Ping
On 14 Feb 21 22:32:22, Michiel Van Der Vlist said the following to Stas Mishche

MV> 1) Stop using older versions of D'Broke or other software that chokes on it

D'Bridge does not have these problems being discussed.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
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#43324From:Karel Kral
To:Michiel van der Vlist
Date:15-02-2021 17:26:16
Subj:Ping
Hello Michiel!

15 Feb 21 12:21, you wrote to Alexey Vissarionov:

MV> Your opinion is noted. My opinion is that in netmail it is just text
MV> and should be dealt with as such.

Agree with both ;-)

I just implemented ping in here - and added one sed to replace "^---" by "TTT".

If somebody put it into netmail (by mistake), it can not harm to replace it (for him/her).

Karel

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#43325From:Michael Dukelsky
To:Karel Kral
Date:15-02-2021 19:49:00
Subj:Ping
Hello Karel,

Monday February 15 2021, Karel Kral wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

MV>> Your opinion is noted. My opinion is that in netmail it is just
MV>> text and should be dealt with as such.

KK> Agree with both ;-)

KK> I just implemented ping in here - and added one sed to replace "^---"
KK> by "TTT".

Implementing a ping robot is a new desease. I also caught it and my implementation was just 3 lines in RNtrack config.

Michael

... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
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#43326From:Karel Kral
To:Michael Dukelsky
Date:17-02-2021 07:08:15
Subj:Ping
Hello Michael!

15 Feb 21 19:49, you wrote to me:

MD> Implementing a ping robot is a new desease. I also caught it and my
MD> implementation was just 3 lines in RNtrack config.

One line in crashmail prefs, but then 20 lines in bash.

Maybe question: shall I limit for example 3 netmails per day per sender?

It is more about common sense than FT* regulations.

What if somebody sends email to all PING nodes at one time - as sender PING? ;-)

Karel

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#43327From:Michiel van der Vlist
To:Karel Kral
Date:17-02-2021 09:14:12
Subj:Ping
Hello Karel,

On Wednesday February 17 2021 07:08, you wrote to Michael Dukelsky:

KK> Maybe question: shall I limit for example 3 netmails per day per
KK> sender?

Why? Are you flooded with PING requests?

KK> What if somebody sends email to all PING nodes at one time - as sender
KK> PING? ;-)

1) Ping is netmail, not email.

2) Using Ping as the sender violates FTS-5001.

3) Nothing serious happens. It just creates another ping sequence in the reverse direction and then it stops.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
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#43328From:Alexey Vissarionov
To:Karel Kral
Date:17-02-2021 12:21:06
Subj:Ping
Good ${greeting_time}, Karel!

17 Feb 2021 07:08:30, you wrote to Michael Dukelsky:

KK> What if somebody sends email to all PING nodes at one time - as
KK> sender PING? ;-)

if(($toname =~ /^$pingname$/i) && not ($fromname =~ /^$pingname$/i))
# ...


--
Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

... god@universe:~ # cvs up && make world
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#43329From:Michiel van der Vlist
To:Karel Kral
Date:17-02-2021 22:48:29
Subj:Ping
Hello Karel,

On Monday February 15 2021 17:26, you wrote to me:

KK> I just implemented ping in here - and added one sed to replace "^---"
KK> by "TTT".

Great!

However... I am unable to determine if your system also supports TRACE. Could it be that your system does not process netmail from the unsecure inbound?


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
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#43330From:Alexey Vissarionov
To:Michiel van der Vlist
Date:18-02-2021 02:02:10
Subj:Ping
Good ${greeting_time}, Michiel!

17 Feb 2021 22:48:58, you wrote to Karel Kral:

KK>> I just implemented ping in here - and added one sed to replace
KK>> "^---" by "TTT".
MvdV> Great! However... I am unable to determine if your system also
MvdV> supports TRACE. Could it be that your system does not process
MvdV> netmail from the unsecure inbound?

That's normal.

Properly configured system must not (as in FTA-1006) automatically process anything received via insecure session and not addressed to the sysop. Also, hosts and hubs are allowed (and obliged by the FPD) to automatically route insecure netmail to their downlinks. That's all.


--
Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

... :wq!
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